Hopefully you've got some good questions lined up. We see a few of those coming into the chat already, which is nice to see that there's a bit of engagement going backwards and forwards. What I will say, Tim, is we're not perfect, are we? Well, no. We're not perfect. So, you know, anything that we say and you want to challenge, please do. Again, it's always good to have that level of engagement from people. So yeah, please do. We're going to be running through some bits and pieces about BS5839 part six today. And we're just going to touch on a few points that we really want to emphasize and make sure that you are on the road when you're installing fire detection and fire alarm systems in domestic properties or similar that you are aware of some of these points that you need to make. So like anything, Tim, it's always important for us to start with sort of legislation, isn't it? Now, we don't know the demographic today of people that are in the room. So we have got a few different points here on England, Scotland and Wales. Oh, we've got someone from Paris as well. Wow. And we've got Alex Seath from Scotland. We've got nothing on anything European. And we've got Mr Seath in the room as well. So that's nice to see that he's always keeping abreast of the changes to regulations. So starting with England and Wales, you might have something slightly different, Tim, because I've switched this around a little bit. I've just rotated England and Scotland the other way around. So yeah, building regulations is probably where we want to start. That's going to sort of dictate to us where we need to be looking for smoke detection, Tim. Yeah, yeah. We can't avoid the fact that inherently within the building regulations, there is a requirement in Schedule 2 of that piece of English and Welsh legislation. That requires fire detection, fire alarm systems to be installed. The guidance that's provided in approved document B for domestic, then gives you, insofar as England and Wales concern, a minimum expectation. And it's in that where certainly there are differences in England and Wales, and then Scotland and Northern Ireland are different again, because of the different legislation that sits there, Jake. Indeed. So if we start jumping into building regulations in England, we can see on screen here that it says that all dwellings should have a fire detection and alarm system for a minimum grade D2, which is category LD3, in accordance with the relevant recommendations of 5039, which we need to keep an eye on, Tim, because there is certain different parts when we come to one of the tables in the particular standard as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think, Jake, it's the building regulations as far as England and Wales concern give you a minimum expectation. The standard 5839 part six approaches the issue around fire detection, fire alarm systems from a slightly different point of view. So one says legislation says this is what you need. You need one. And this is the minimum you need. The standard says actually in terms of the engineering and best practice and all of the bits that say, they're ид certain droolens around them are the ones around them, but all of these moving criteria toward normal нам and best practices and the standard that we approach it for minimum expectations within the range of types of domestic premises that exist. Because a,m some sort of a domestic apartment in a passive house that a flat, a apartment, an Airbnb, a bed, and breakfast. All of these things are just different and one size does not fit all. So that gives us a minimum standard if anybody is concerned with you know, building regulations and people are saying this, are saying well what is the minimum standard where do i need to go who's going to tell me that information because it's right and properly that it says about 5839 part six which is the code of practice which we'll come on to in a second but building regulations is the first protocol where we need to start now there is a subtle difference tim when it comes to uh wales isn't there because you've got instead of um when it talks about the different minimum grades you've got a grade d in here and it doesn't give you that number um which is is the subtle difference between that and uh england as well primarily jake this is because it hasn't been updated really uh their guidance the approved document for wales is is generally takes a little bit longer to update um and so the principle remains the same um you would still be working with a d2 um as a minimum uh uh in terms of that but it's it's more to do with the updating of the approved document in wales so moving into scotland then it's slightly different again we've got a couple of bits of legislation that we need to touch on here it's the tolerable standard and the building regulations yeah much you want to add to this point here tim i think i think for me the the probably the key piece of legislation will be the tolerable standard uh in scotland um uh used to be called the repairing standard if i remember rightly and and any of our scottish brethren listening and forgive me if i've got that slightly awry but the tolerable standard is is shall we say can be added to uh by a scottish minister and and although not originally in as as a key requirement um for it for a premises to be considered to be fit for human habitation insofar as the tolerable standard is concerned it requires a fire detection and fire alarm system as as building regulations in scotland also require um but in essence it lays down a minimum a minimum of an ld2 system so uh it it it's it's got a higher minimum requirement than england and wales that's that's the key bit in insofar as scotland is concerned um you have to put more in um and that's a good thing in that personal view it's a good thing absolutely yeah yeah absolutely it's always always good to have more you know you want to get this uh this early warning as quick as possible and if we if we've only got a very few of these detectors in the properties then of course we you know it's going to take a little bit longer but if we've got them absolutely everywhere now appreciate that people are not going to want to install them in every single um particular area but you know the earlier we can get into it and we can get these detectors working then then brilliant because the key bit there jake isn't it is it's just making sure that people are able to evacuate the premises safely and quickly uh and the quicker that happens the safer everyone is and and and that's that's just the only criteria a fire alarm system doesn't stop the fire it just means you get out quicker absolutely absolutely and the building scotland building regulations for scotland tim is there anything that needs to be added on for this as well um in terms of points to make yeah not not really other than it is a piece of legislation you are required to have them in but really the key element is a tolerable standard um that that's the main driver for for um the type of fire alarm system the building like in england and wales already told you have to want in yeah um yeah uh then dennis has made a really good question i'm going to pick up on that point in very very shortly um because he's put here when when you talk about domestic dwellings are you also uh including a private home i'll come on to that in just uh just a second when we start to talk about uh the scope of the particular standard that we're talking about today now yes we've got 5839 part 6 yes that's the code of practice for fire safety and design uh or sorry fire detection fire alarm systems for buildings but we also have other standards that we need to be aware of because they sort of overlapped and would be fair to say yeah so we've got 5839 part 6 which is 2019 currently if you have any older standards please make sure you throw them in the bin yeah and the reason being is that they simply fall away when the latest standard comes out so if you have an older standard please don't work to that one because you're not going to be in line with uh the latest code of practice your certificates may be outdated and so on and so forth you may see some other changes in there that weren't are now in 2019 that wasn't in the previous edition so please make sure you uh remove that one from your from your library we've also got bs triple 9991 which is fire safety and design management and use for residential buildings again another code of practice it's i need to interrupt here jake though go on it's it's a 2025 okay so that has been updated um so so we must have slept since uh that was uh the presentation was uh updated but but yeah it got recently relatively recently updated and so the the the dates have changed and some of the recommendations that sit in there have been tweaked to ebin so as i just said any old standards or any code of practices that you've got that have now fallen away this one included that we've got on the screen make sure you get rid of that one and make sure you get the latest 2025 that's exactly right and we've also got bs 7671 um which we all know and we all love for all of its i'm not going to say flaws because that's unfair to you tim um all of its gray areas let's say it's gray areas absolutely no gray areas that's a fantastic document so those are the standards just a little bit more about them sorry under 50291 um for co and their and their sighting yeah just a little bit more about them then tim yeah is there something that we need to be aware of when it comes to because because where's his name gone dennis was talking about um private homes does it it covers all of that doesn't it yeah yeah absolutely it is it is as the title says it recommendations for planning design installation commissioning and maintenance and fire alarm systems in domestic premises and it sort of is a blanket one and as you rightly there pick up it's the single family so you could say a single home private home rented home doesn't matter hmos there uh and each self -contained unit having a single person or family uh then you've got your sheltered housing and this includes dwelling units little apartments uh within uh the sheltered housing and along with the common areas and uh the sheltered housing and the sheltered housing and along with the common areas then you've also pick up uh supported housing now um as uh another variation uh that sits within the recommendations of 5839 part 6 so yeah the whole range so um i'm just trying to think jake of anything that doesn't sit in there and it's it's there isn't anything there it is it's domestic yeah and if and if it wears a domestic hat uh it's 5839 part 6 okay fair enough i have to say there's a minor tweak there though don't we because there are some domestic that are that big or that complicated that that whilst it wears a domestic hat it has to be dressed in a 5839 part one uh uh standard and so we'll touch on that perhaps but but certainly we have to think about that uh with a bit more nuance uh geffen just put as well what about industrial buildings um industrial buildings um industrial buildings do not fall under this particular code of practice they would sit under the part one if you're looking at a fire alarm system so yeah outside of the scope of this particular document um but it would fall into into bs 5039 part one oh sorry tim i did put supported houses on there as well that's because i haven't got my notes on with almost all my screens um uh triple nine one as well like you said tim it's been that has been updated yeah 2025 um i think jake with this one this one's perhaps for a lot of people not that common um and and and to that extent um the folks listening in may not have even heard of it but it is a standard that looks as a title says fire safety in the design management and use of residential buildings code of practice there are some important tweaks that triple nine one provides that are necessary if you're designing the fire detection and fire alarm system for perhaps apartment blocks uh dwellings such as uh flats uh in in high rise and the things that surround that then triple nine one becomes an important reference document uh that you need to be thinking about would they would they would they need to think about it with regards to the fire risk assessment or would that be done by a fire risk assessor then they would just need to be aware that that document exists there would for an apartment there would be a fire strategy um and and and and the whole reason for a fire detection fire alarm system to exist is to align with that fire strategy that's been done and as part of that there would have been a fire risk assessment and and triple nine one exists to help with asking questions around well what happens if you've got a balcony what happens if you've got something else what extras do i have to install um so it might be that if you've got a balcony um so it might be that if you've got a balcony that that that's uh you you gain access to it through a kitchen for example well you need to know on that balcony if an alarm's going off internally so that you can then escape through an appropriate escape route um uh safely and adequately um because if again if you're in an apartment block you're too many feet up to survive a fall uh you're going to jump off the balcony uh and so triple nine one just gives us uh an extra steer uh an extra steer uh into to how we then add on it might be that you simply add on not another sounder but you add on um a visual a visual means of detection some flashing light something that says actually the arms going off don't ignore it sorry again i've not seen my notes there um so and the other one that we need to be aware of is uh 767 yeah we we've touched on this this is more to do with the fixed wiring we make sure that the fixed wiring to our detectors conforms to 7671 in terms of smoke detectors then tim does 7671 actually even mention about fire alarms it does reference out to uh fire alarm systems it references out to the BS5839 series in in chapter 59 um it used to contain a bit more detail but it's treading on other people's toes uh when it tries to so there's clear delineation between the two 5839 references back to 7671 about the wiring 7671 refers out to 5839 regarding the fire detection and fire alarm system that's necessary and and and and whilst there's a small bit of overlap there isn't much they they each keep to their own territory so there's some of the standards that we need to be aware of um especially you know the the triple nine one yes you need to be aware of it yes it exists um and then sort of interlink that with the other ones that we've mentioned there yeah and then just a bit about standards and regulations um i'm not going to touch too much on the on the product today uh of what we're doing here with the the aspire range but just to let you know that all the products that we have do conform to have do conform to these um standards um and yeah that's pretty much and i suppose here these these are two particular standards or three standards that that reference uh carbon monoxide alarms and i know i've certainly picked up on a couple of the questions around whether co alarms can be connected to fire detection fire alarm systems we'll touch on that a wee bit later but um but yeah they they they they it's necessary to weigh that up particularly in those premises where you are burning fossil fuels one type or another whether it be gas uh or whether it be coal fired or something like that or if you're just trying to protect the flu maybe indeed yeah that's a big jump from there to there i don't know what's happening well well you've i think you've you've missed the page that says grades and categories of system um so moving on then and this is sort of the main bulk of um 5839 part six in terms of what's inside the standard um we're going to be touching on the grades of systems and the categories we can see here that we've got grade a grade c d1 d2 f1 and f2 now these are all different in some way shape or form yeah yeah they they they they they they they used to be a grade b and a grade e um but but since nobody ever put them in um um they they sort of dropped out in the uh 2016 standard 2017 standard um the grader system gives us some idea if you like around the the engineering of the system um now most commonly of course we're going to be dealing with a d1 d2 system uh and and and and that is the most common type of uh fire detection fire alarm system but the minute you move into slightly more complicated premises whether it's it grows to uh three stories or whether it it increases in size the the the floor area and and then when we move into much more complex premises you know buckingham palace is a serious house uh and and and a d1 system isn't going to cut the mustard uh with regard to that we premises there so so so they're going to move on to a much more complicated system and that's a grade a system uh it's still a domestic premises um but a grade a system is is really a 5839 part one system with a few tweaks that sit uh within the 5836 5839 part six standard um and so it's it's it's it's recognizing that a grade a system has a level of complexity it has a control and indicating equipment it has uh fire uh fire uh smoke detectors uh fire uh smoke detectors not not particularly smoke alarms there won't be an inbuilt uh alarm unit within the means of detection it will have separate sounders it will have the zonal arrangements that sit there it may be an addressable system and and all of those things that sit within part one can be referenced in part six for the more complicated uh uh premises okay so there's there's there's those two there you know just to touch on on the other ones at the bottom the four uh d1 d2 f1 and f2 so most places now tim are looking for this um tamper proof battery aren't they that we see in there so a 10 year lithium cell that sits inside um some people are going for a you know almost a hybrid system as well so they could have a combination of uh battery with uh battery with tamper proof and have them interconnected into the mains one i'm thinking tim you know when you've got systems that are being extended upon so someone's having an extension having a new kitchen or kitchen diner you know we keep seeing these um sloping roofs being added to the back of houses where they're extending their kitchen out and they've got a bit of a dining room towards the end it may be wise to add some uh into there but they can't get the cables there so they will put these f1 detectors in there then interlink them back into into the system as well or if they've simply got you know some downstairs and they want some upstairs sometimes it's an art man to get a cable up there so therefore they might just go for the the battery options or they might go for the the mains ones it all depends on your local area as to what's being stipulated and also council that's right and also jake what you can do is if if if you can't get your interlink as a solid cable then you certainly can get your interlink through radio yeah and that's that becomes an acceptable option that's certainly one of the questions i think has popped up on that side of things well and yeah wireless solution is perfectly reasonable solution i think what's worth noting is um that that the minimum 10-year provision on a d1 system the the you need to make sure that the dates are on it and the the client knows that there's a there's a cutoff um and then just be thinking about that interesting you sort of raised that as well because recently we've had a few people um onto us about our dates on our particular devices and i said like you know is that an expiry date well the inbuilt detector itself was the sounder in the detector is going to tell you when it needs replacing now there is 10 years from the point of installing it so as soon as you install it and clip it in that's going to know that it's got 10 years from it the label on the side gives you an indication as to when that may be because obviously the the detector itself can't talk to you and tell you when it needs to be replaced or it hasn't got a countdown you know uh audio part to it that is just an indication as to when that will then be uh needed to be replaced yeah it's i mean in my own house that that happened recently we've been in the house 11 years the uh one of the smoke alarms started to beep at me the tent it was it it was a a d1 arrangement it's it needed changing as simple as that so steve's put here any uh any that don't cause mass panic over burnt toast yeah no i mean there are settings on toasters that you can turn them down steve so if you want to turn your toaster down moving on then into uh categories of system we've got ld which refers to the protection of life and we've got three categories that's in we've actually gone in a bit of reverse haven't we because you've put ld3 ld2 then ld1 purely because ld3 is is the lowest uh category isn't it yeah yeah yeah insofar as england and wales are concerned in scotland minimum category is ld2 uh as as it is in northern ireland um uh for any listening over over the water there um but but northern ireland and scotland are both ld2 in essence um england and wales are ld3 minimums so for the people that are listening then could you just sort of elaborate on what they mean for people that are going into properties looking around yeah and where do they need to sight these alarms yeah okay so an ld3 arrangement has has a smoke alarm or a multi-sensor alarm in escape routes and circulation areas that doesn't mean i mean most in most properties what that tends to look like is you come in your front door and in your hallway there's an alarm there and then you look up the stairs and there's an alarm at the top of the the top of your stairs and people think well that's my ld3 system all hunky dory and it might be um but but it also means remember that these detectors have a a a capability of sensing smoke that once you move out of that space the detector may not see the smoke and so if you've got a long corridor upstairs or a long corridor downstairs that may require multiple smoke uh alarms just so that that that that that that area is covered but that would be an ld3 system in an ld2 system you add in two separate areas you add in the principal habitable room uh and that's typically the living room but it doesn't have to be and you would also include uh the kitchen and the reason for this is uh a kitchen is more likely to have a fire but statistics show that a fire but statistics show that a fire that starts in the principal habitable room is more likely to lead to death and so an ld2 system covers both of those arrangements um and typically you would then put a heat detector in the kitchen uh and you would put another smoke or multi-sensor in the principal habitable room and an ld1 system adds to that and says well in all spaces other than toilets bathrooms and shower rooms and shower rooms because in the end you you you you the the the steam could set off a smoke alarm in those spaces and and it's highly unlikely that you're sat on the toilet with a candle burning although i don't preclude that and if if that is your if that is your bag then stick a smoke alarm in it and stop burning that candle um but but an ld1 is a more comprehensive system it covers every bedroom every space uh uh with the appropriate type of alarm here's an interesting one interesting one yeah what if you had a three-story house and you had a sort of kitchen slash living room at the bottom yeah and then upstairs you had another living room where does that sit does that sit in an ld2 or does that sit in an ld1 um it it depends the ld2 uh or the choosing of the gradient category of the system sits separately from so you would look at the property from so you would look at the property beforehand and you would say a am i in scotland england wales or northern ireland because if i'm in scotland i'm sticking an ld2 anyway and now i maybe have two principal habitable rooms and that's okay just that just because you call it a principal habitable room doesn't mean to say you can't have two of them yeah indeed uh and so so you would do that in england and wales uh you could get away still with is it a circulation space do i have to pass through somewhere as a means of escape and you would weigh that up but i would argue that a suitable risk assessment would say actually if i'm in that space and the risk has increased then i want to be thinking about uh some means of detection uh of either smoke or heat um and and so it drops into a second principal habitable room in an ld2 system it doesn't say you need to the building rates england and wales says this is your minimum that hasn't changed the tolerable standard in scotland says it's an ld2 it doesn't say that but that's effectively what it is and that hasn't changed you've just changed the parameters of what the principal habitable room is understood loud and clear good now in terms of categories we've just got this little bit here that we want to touch on because we've got ld which is uh protection of life and we've also got pd which is protection of property very similar um in terms of the ones and twos but in terms of what we're trying to look to cover is completely different we're looking just to look after property here now i've only really got one example in a domestic setting that i can particularly think of where we just want to protect the property and we are using these uh types of arrangements in so far as using part six and not part one so i want to throw my example out there tim and see if you can if you can top that um my example would be in a garage that is looking after some expensive cars in there yeah that would be that that's a good example as it would be if you also have battery storage systems uh in in those spaces it generally you look at protection of property uh when you're not expected to be there if there's not a common access that you're regularly going in and and and you're thinking people are living there sitting there worried about what happens should there be a fire there then you might go well actually i'm not bothered because the garage could set on fire but we're still okay in the house yes okay whereas if you're in a space that you're actually saying as you rightly say i want to protect the car the the whatever these because there's a whole set of costs attached to these then then you suddenly move into the pd you'll see by the definition that sits on them a pd1 is very similar to a uh an ld1 um and and and a pd2 has slightly lower levels of protection um but even so you know that's that's sort of the underlying principle is that that they're less likely to worry about loss of life thank you moving on table one section nine yeah there's lots of little bits here that we just need to cover um and it still does cover all of those you know it talks about all of the the different places that we've mentioned hmo shelter accommodation private dwellings uh single family dwellings with no floor greater than 200 meters squared um and it sort of elaborates a little bit more and it gives you an example into what types of grade and category you need to put into new or materially altered and also into existing as well now new or materially altered is where you're going to start to think about are you changing the fire load of that particular building are you increasing the risk for example what was just mentioned about whether people are having these sloping roof kitchens extended is that materially altering the building is that now becoming into a circulation space where you may need to use that to leave the building is it significant where you may think actually we need to add in another detector or have we have we altered the property in such a way that there's going to be an enhanced risk there existing premises if that's if you're going in absolutely bone dry no smoke detectors we're going to start to look at the different grades and categories that we've got there and we can see that the minimum requirements that are set out in to uh building regulations are going to follow through into that table tim yeah yeah remember the building regulations set a minimum ld3 uh england and wales ld2 scotland northern ireland this this table um uh table one within 5839 part six and this is just what's what you see on the screen is a is a cut example from from that table deals with it assesses for you if you like the level of risk and gives you a recommended minimum grade and category of system based on the nature of risk to the occupants um and so when you're dealing with something like this you you you ask the question again we're back to how big is the floor area how many stories are there who who who's likely to be living there is it a rental property is it homeowner is it is it a transient population like hmos often are um is it all of these questions sort of arise within it and and and and when we sat there as a committee we weighed up uh levels of risk and then attached a grade and category of system um that we deemed to be a minimum reasonable so it sits absolutely other than the building regs and it and it doesn't consider the tolerable standard in scotland in a sense um uh it just says look for these types of spaces these are the minimum recommendations that sit there um the law may top them or the law may come under them but these are where we sit as a committee in terms of of uh minimum minimum recommendations not not let's try and achieve this it's no this is this is where the level of risk is sat uh within it and and there's an awful lot of notes attached to the table but but it still sits there um um with with a clear so so like i said before if you've got three floors you'll move to a grade a system owner occupied three-story house grade a all day long because you're not going to jump out the top floor window and think you're going to survive whereas a two-story premises or a bungalow you will you know you don't have to go out the front door um you don't have to be quite so responsive in terms of those arrangements um it's interesting the other thing that's worth noting is is if you're then coming on to think about the nature of a rewire don't forget the fire detection and fire alarm system because that sits within the requirement of that rewire just because it's not detailed in 7671 to say and you will put a fire alarm system in the building rig still sits there and so you install it at the same time as the rewire yes that's a real interesting point to make tim because there have been times where people have said can you do a rewire and all of a sudden it's like well you've got to include the smoke detectors no no no i just want the the basics done i'll put some battery ones up but then we you sort of lean on the facts it is in in um you in in 7671 you stated that you know it's mentions about the 5839 series this being one of them so you then have to go to this one and this is then going to tell you exactly what you've got to put in on your rewire interesting as well for anyone um lots of hear from the audience whether you know rented we can see there's um d1 ld2 yeah it's interesting to see what what the state of the properties are out there in in the uk um currently with are they adhering to this are you going in and and doing your tests are you um putting the recommendations back to the homeowners to say actually you know if you are renting this out it has to be a d1 ld2 system um you know and it's it's and there's obviously the the key obvious risk factor is that it's rented and people in rental are not necessarily quite looking after the property in the same way that the owner might not saying the owners do uh i'm but based on the the the assessed risk of it then the owner of the property needs to keep in mind that the risks have increased and therefore improve the the the grading category system if necessary interesting as well when we talk about minimum requirements for the detectives and alarms we put put this up purposely um purely just to highlight the facts that i was alluding to earlier in the presentation that you know all standard all detectors you know whether that's smoke heat multi or carbon monoxide need to have a bscn number on them i say to say that you know all of us uh for esp aspire have all of these on there and it is you know please make sure you obviously buy from reputable manufacturers and uh reputable wholesalers and ensuring that they've got these standards uh on them i mean it's likely of course with a smoke alarm you're not going to get an ionization alarm anyway um i don't i don't know of any uh alarm manufacturer that are making them anymore um but but there they are they might there might be some still around some legacy ones that are still functioning um and that people just change the battery and so you might need to be aware of that um of course one of the benefits of the ionization was there was a slightly slower response and so if you're in a dusty environment ionization detectors uh sort of had a benefit over the optical that's thatched roof properties would be the prime example yeah um kevin's put so on a rewire to fit smokes or admit them um again that's completely down to to the customers to to decide you can only advise from your side of things that you've got to install them yeah he should be advising yes that's and then we've got uh barry says aiko is the only way forward it's entirely up to you barry you're you're your own man you can make your own decisions um we're just simply pointing out that there are others out on the market as well and we we you know we we so just a few bits on um the different types of uh location and sighting for fire detectors i think yeah more there we go so for ld3 systems tim we've got one of the main points here that i want to pick up on i'm not going to run through every single one obviously time constraints but no bedroom door to be further than three meters from the nearest smoke alarm that's quite an interesting one you know we think of these old terrace houses and where they have the the bedroom at the back of the building the third bedroom sometimes that can actually be three meters away from a detector so again if we're just talking about ld3 systems where we've got top and bottom in our circulation spaces there may come a time where you actually you do need to include more than just the top and bottom of the stairs based on the fact that actually they do need to be three meters away from uh sorry three meters from the nearest smoke alarm as well yeah spot on jake i mean as you as you highlighted some of the big old victorian uh terrorist or semi uh properties they they they go back a long way don't they and and once you're into that position those smokes aren't going to sense the smoke no i mean marcus who works in our team as well he had a great example for this uh i'm not going to go into major detail but you know he he's got a um i'm making sound like he's got a mansion now and he'll really appreciate that he's got a little bit that comes off of his main um corridor into his daughter's room and um his daughter came in and said that actually there's something going on and there's some smoke coming from an appliance but because his detector wasn't close enough it didn't actually detect it if if she was asleep it could have been uh could have been a different story but luckily everybody was safe there so now safe to say he's gone and put in some more more detectives i think he's gone ld1 hasn't he yeah yeah yeah he walks around the house with one in his pocket as well um at the top as well we can see that's uh 7.5 from the from meters from the nearest detector that's purely because of that's how much that one detector can um can sense or how far away it can sense and it's also be aware of of there's a sense in which you you want a bit of an overlap to make sure that you cover because it's a circular arrangement so you want it so that all areas are picked up so you'll probably find it comes in a wee bit closer than that but yeah ld2 is everything in uh in addition to ld3 um so co detectors may be used under certain conditions yeah what's what are we going with on this one then tim if we're including the heat in yeah as part of this as well we can see that we've got a 5 .3 meters so if we've got heat and smoke combined yeah do we take the shortest value or can we use the 7.5 still you can you can certainly use the 7.5 but the key the key element with the heat detector is when it's on its own and when it's in the kitchen which is where primarily you're going to be concerned uh in an ld2 arrangement or even a variant on an ld3 you might go actually i'll have it in in in the circulation spaces and my kitchen uh you you might it's sort of a half way house between ld3 and ld2 um the smoke detector is just slower in response um and and for very obvious reasons because the guy that had his uh his toaster that was smoking clean your toaster out a bit more often you get less of a problem um but you if you've got an arrangement like that in your kitchen then then a heat detector becomes necessary and and because they're slower in response because the area in which they pick up is reduced you've got to have a bigger kitchen you've got a bigger space you've got a bigger space you probably need to have two uh closer than the 7.5 and then ld1 is everything that we've spoken about in ld2 and ld3 uh and we've just sort of raised the point there again some general recommendations yeah i think this is an important one jake because it's to do with where we mount it and where and the effectiveness of the smoke alarms we've got to be conscious that the whole positioning of of our smoke and heat alarms is critical because we want the smoke to be found by them yeah if you put them in the corner somewhere then as the smoke billows up it may not actually get into the corners of the premises whether that be the the corners of a room and roof or whether it be because you've got a beam or that you've got some sort of um ventilation going on anything that reduces the chance of that smoke alarm picking up smoke particles reduces the ability of the detector to do its job and so where you position things matters indeed and you know we're speaking about these kitchens everybody and i don't know why i keep going on about this as a as an example it's just the the one that i can think of the most but you know when people have these skylights and all of a sudden they start moving the detectors up high and it's like well hang on a sec we need to bring them down so we can actually get to them get to the smoke as quick as possible i'm not saying put them on on the floor of course but you know you don't put it so high up that actually it takes ages for the smoke to reach up through that uh skylight before you do it as well you can see that we've got here as well 300 mil from uh wall or light fitting yeah you know same principle you need to make sure that it's keeping it away from things that the smoke can actually reach to the chamber the reason why it's the fittings of course is the fittings can give off a wee bit of heat and the smoke comes up the heat stops it and it pushes it away so so so that's why we sort of keep it away from light fitting luminaires because we don't know what's going to be put up there so you just have a general blanket keep it away from uh light fittings also one of the ones that we want to talk about is uh structural beams greater than 10 percent of the seeding height to be treated as if it was a wall yeah this means that detection should be provided on both sides of the beam so we've got we've got an example there so if the ceiling height is 350 sorry 3.5 meters from uh finished floor level to the ceiling if the beam exceed 350 mil and there would need to be detection on both sides of the beam well that's the standard sort of roof uh sorry floor to ceiling height is 2.4 meters so we take that into consideration if it's greater than 240 mil correct we do need to actually treat both sides as though that they are completely separate so and you would and you would also jake keep them that 300 mil away from that beam yes each side we put on their carbon monoxide detectors used to be treated the same as uh same as for smoke detectors yeah same reason it's we need that we need the the carbon monoxide to actually get to the means of detection um so if you're then putting it in places where it won't get yep beat to the object uh and then we've got loft spaces for pv systems boilers ups to contain smoke multi uh sensor alarm as well yeah just on the on the carbon then tim we've mentioned about the different heights and stuff sometimes we see them on the wall yeah in kitchens where the boiler is maybe yeah what's the reason for that is it because there's the different density of gas or is it purely because it's just an easy location to get to it's often it's purely just because it's an easy location to get to um you know the whole point of the co detect the co detector is not there to detect uh fire it's there to detect the incomplete combustion of uh whether that be a gas boiler or a coal fighter or whatever and so being in proximity to that is a good thing uh it picks it very quickly carbon alongside is an insidious gas it kills you before you know you're even dead uh and and and so co detectors become an essential feature in any premises where where you've got gas that's being given off um i mean obviously typically if you're if you're very wise and you are having your annual check on your boilers then then obviously it becomes less of an issue but it still becomes an important one because like i say you don't know you're being poisoned yeah Sergio raises a good point that the paz 6300 recommends that solar pv battery uh or inverter is not putting the loft in the first place yeah absolutely yeah you know there's different standards that we do need to reference um sometimes that's the only place that you can put it the recommendations are there to give you some different variation and try to install it in a place where it isn't likely to cause harm but ultimately if that's the only place it can go and you've put in all the provisions there you've put the flooring in you've put the detection in there the early warning detection then it could go in there um but yeah just a just a pick up on that and there's also legacy issues they were put in lost space there are legacy issues and they're not likely to be taken out of those lost spaces uh in the short to medium term i absolutely remember those days of sitting in lofts installing inverters with uh dc isolators and ac isolators that was not fun um so just touching on the supply then we've got um two different things here we should have probably done a poll on this but um here we are dedicated independent circuits supplied from a consume unit so it's saying that within clause 1540 we can actually put a dedicated circuit in it doesn't have to be on with the lights yeah but it also does say that we can actually supply it from the lights as well if we need to yeah and and actually there is a there is a there is a there is very real good common sense in in having it from uh local regularly used lighting circuit and it's for the obvious reason uh that people will will will not try and turn off the circuit breaker um if it means they're having to walk about in the dark uh and where and and and if they had an independent one and they were getting what they thought was nuisance operating of the smoke alarm then they might be tempted to um and having it off the lighting circuit reduces that risk um that being said both are fine uh you know they sit within the standard quite happily what you've got to be careful of is is is if um not to on your on your interlink uh not to have that interlink uh on two separate uh circuits uh purely purely from an isolation point of view absolutely the standard also allows for rf connectivity so you've got 15.5 it says that they can be interconnected by wiring all smoke and heat alarms should be connected on a single final circuit as you've just mentioned uh there tim uh there tim so this is a technology that you can communicate with um or these detects can communicate with um whether that's uh the housing or whether that's the base whether it's inside the head it doesn't matter as long as it communicates um with each other does it mention tim anything about systems being crossed over so if you know if you're adding in does it have to be the same system to guarantee yeah the standard the standard the standard the manufacturer will provide the necessary guidance i've i'm not aware of any manufacturer that's going to run around and saying oh yes please yeah absolutely but but the standard the standard um wouldn't um it because the standard has to be generic for all manufacturers as well as for all designers and installers you can't have a an arrangement that that deals with the any variations in that yeah um it might be that they do work but that's not by design and therein lies the problem around warranty and and all of the other pieces that come with it yeah i think can i add jake sorry yeah of course the other thing that that's important to be aware of with your rf interlink is really need to make sure the maintenance side of that is is tip-top just so that we don't lose it um if you've got a hardwired arrangement we know that it's hardwired and and and and and and so uh that common sounding uh we've got to make sure that when there's rf interlink that that that maintenance sits there to make sure that the whole alarm functions i think somebody asked the question actually about how often do they need to be um tested grade d systems yeah it depends the answer is um the standard shall we get say gives a bit more guidance to landlords than it does to domestic because in the end you can't force um private housing um private housing to to do to do the job um and so in that sense it sort of sits separately but um if you've got an increased level of common if you're the designer of the system and you've installed the system then it's for you to say well because of this because of the nature of the premises because it's landlord or hmo i recommend that we do this every year or whatever um there is guidance within the appendices of uh the code of practice um so there's nothing um so there's nothing legislatively laid down yeah um and and like i say it would depend if it was a landlord you're probably going to do it annually because that makes good sense um if you've got a high turnover of tenants you may want to do it a bit more regularly yeah i mean we talk about visual inspections and things like that when we well we used to talk about visual inspections back in the day when uh when we had change of tenancy obviously now we've got the psr is not psr sorry the yeah public's rented sector that's the one prs that's the one um which obviously dictates what we need to do there as well for the electrical systems just a couple of last points that we wanted to mention again you know we're talking about certification vitally important for people that are out there installing uh smoke detectors we can see here that this is a minor works one and this one's courtesy of yourself tim actually bless us separate hat separate hat um this is a minor works certificate we need to make sure that we fill this out for the fixed wiring so if we are uh wiring detectors i think this would be j where you'd use it as a as an addition to an existing whereas obviously if it was a brand new e a rewire then you would encompass that within your eic yeah it would be a full electrical installation certificate oh look at that chris has just put do you know a generic for alarm installation certificate we do or safety check report that's available online um and then we've also got the one for your detectors as well now we've had some discussion with this um with this particular certificate at length with some contractors okay and we were talking about whether we needed to actually you know fill one of these out if we are just changing heads okay um i sort of said there's probably not any real need to however if you're looking to make sure that you were the last person in that property filling one of these out might be the best thing for you as a business to make sure that you cover yourself it's the same i guess it's the same scenario tim as when people say well we don't need to fill out a certificate for replacing a socket or changing a pendant you know there would be guidance out there to say that probably it's the best thing to do just so you are the last person yeah you describe what you've done in that in that system therefore people um you know you can hold it up and say actually this is what i did and not all of this other stuff that's happened um since i left the the property now that's not us advocating to say go and buy loads of certificates or you know you have to fill one of these out but sometimes there may be a situation where you get to an installation you get a customer that may be you know a bit temperamental and you fill out a certificate and then you go there you go there's my certificate and that's what i've done yeah and that's and that's exactly right i mean if it's a brand new e both certificates an eic and a certificate based on the model given in the code of practice uh if it's if it's an additional alteration or like you say simply a change of head you could go either way and it'd be perfect reasonable but like you say handing a sticker to a client just does belt and braces yeah yeah yeah that's the one covers you covers you nicely um the minimum you you should do is make sure you put the date of replacement uh on on the head um so that again they're left without excuse to say well you didn't tell me when i needed to do it oh you can get i think ours come with a date for the head and a date for the consumer unit uh and it just then said well i put it there and i put it there my uh my uh chat box has gone uh we're back again um do we want to answer those things then jake yeah we will do some people are asking about um generic certificates um as well if you i'm just hoping i'm right in saying this because i sent curtis the information over if he could just nod his head when i when i say this um there should be a tab at the top of your screen where you can go on to and it's got uh documentation on there and you can download the there's a contractor guidebook in there and um there's another document that i sent over as well both of them are in there if you download that and go to the contractor's guidebook at the back of there there's a qr code and that's going to take you to the aspire certification where you can download that as many times as you want and use that as your model template if you if you so wish to do so as well so we've got some questions then i think we've picked up on on a few of them um where do we start at the very beginning how we've answered them look at that curse is so good for us is there a requirement for rental properties to be provided with visual as well as audio indicators that the property could be rented to a disabled person if if a simple answer is if you knew it was to be rented out to those with disabilities um and that would be that uh hard of hearing uh uh would would be a classic example uh then then the answer is you should design for that um uh and that would be a perfectly reasonable thing if you weren't to know but you wanted to have it prepped for that then again by all means include it but but um knowing who the client's likely to be will constrain how you would therefore design drops into the risk assessment doesn't it it does it does indeed and i think we we've we're sort of maybe a little bit guilty of that uh from the outset you know we we sometimes look at systems and someone says can you come and put some smoke detectors in you rock up and you go yep you're going to need one there one there one there and do your do your thing without actually having the conversation of could you tell me what the this this property is going to be or is there a likelihood of this being uh let it out to disabled persons having that upfront conversation is probably going to help you in the end yeah absolutely uh which detector is most suitable for an open plan kitchen dining room with a dishwasher large fridge and dishwasher it's got two dishwashers it's got two dishwashers it's got two dishwashers pod forks it's big kitchen i think he probably meant also another yeah yeah i mean the first shout is clearly for a heat detector but then we move and ask the question how big is the open plan area if it's big uh if it's big uh if it's big uh then you might put a second smoke further away uh that's not going to be impacted by by the dodgy uh toaster which someone else mentioned as well do you think the ld3 category for fireback 39 part 6 needs to be reviewed it should have a heat for the kitchen um no question for government yeah um probably not and the reason it doesn't need to be reviewed is because you start then to creep into the next category up and you say well actually you know there is a greater level of load there typically if you're moving into new properties they will have an ld2 system as it's set out in table one as well yeah yeah at which point you'd include it naturally yeah do you recommend carbon dioxide alarms to be interlinked to other main detectors you are you are you are the standard the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the anytime bit of care we need to have here is that depending on the nature of the carbon monoxide detector and what you're asking the carbon monoxide detector to do will impact uh on on choices here so if you've got a grade a system and you are selecting a carbon monoxide detector as a means of fire detection, you are using a CO detector to a different standard and you're installing it in a sense a wee bit like a smoke alarm. If you are using a carbon monoxide detector and simply interconnecting it to the fire detection and fire alarm system, because when the carbon monoxide detector goes off, the whole of the system goes off and gets people out. That's a good thing. But you're not using that carbon monoxide detector as a means of fire detection. And therefore, we operate that with the 50291 series of standard that sits there. So it's a wee bit like that. By all means interlink. It's absolutely permitted in the standards so far. Dennis put in there, when you talk about domestic.nz, you also included a private home. Yeah, we picked that one up. Would Sheltered not be covered under BS5839 Part 1, especially for a block scheme? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, Daniel, you've mentioned there it's for a block scheme. It's probably going to fall outside of the scope of Part 6, predominantly Tim. You know, we're going to be having a chat with the local council to maybe see where they're at and what they think within their local expertise as to whether it needs a full -blown system or is it going to need that grade A system, which sort of crosses that line very, or certainly is very close to that line. And it might well be, Jake, that the Fire and Rescue Service would have, as part of their responsibilities, a minimum expectation and you would take that as key stakeholders, you would take that on board. Okay. Okay. Are all systems in HMO to be interconnected? No. No. Each room sits on its own. Otherwise, you'd have everybody coming out at an arrangement. If you look at the definition, they remain single-family units. And if it's sitting within Part 6, then they sit alone and they typically do not interconnect to the unit. The other alarms. That's an interesting one. That's an interesting one. You think you're going to put the cat amongst the pigeons on that one. Yeah. I think the issue is you've got, I suppose, I would tie it into a risk assessment in that arrangement. If it's done in such a way that you've got on each HMO door, these should be fire doors giving you 30, 60, 90 minute delay. The alarm going off in one space would be heard by the others. And so you've got that arrangement. But in the same way that if you were in an apartment block, a separate apartment has its own 5839 Part 6 fire detection and fire alarm system. And then you would look to look at the communal areas as well, wouldn't you, if there is some? And that would drop into Part 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is it acceptable to apply wireless fire system in a storage building domestic? Probably need a little bit more information for that one, I suppose. But that's not saying that you couldn't? No. No, just need a little bit more information to understand that. Which type of wireless smoke detector and fire alarms are recommended in residential apartment? I think we've covered most of that one, haven't we? Fire. Aspire ones, aren't they? Yep. Hi, guys. What is a central controller? What we mean by that is control and indicating equipment at, that would be a grade A system. A single point. Yeah. It would have a battery supply. It would have, you would bring all of your zones back to that point and your means of detection and your sounders. And it's a central unit that could then be interlinked to the fire rescue service or other. providers, necessary providers. Yeah. We also do one within our range as well that you can, if you can't get up to the detector to test it, or you don't have a long broom to stick against the ceiling. We also do a switch, which is in keeping with some of our click wiring accessories as well, which is red and you can then sound it, you can hush it and you can locate as well. So, you know, you might want to choose to do that as well. What is the frequency? We've done that one. Yeah. Is alarms, if alarms should be fitted on a rewire, then should they be added to an EICR? That's a great question, Sergio. Typically, no, because you are commenting on the installation to make sure it's safe for continued use. If, if there's the absence of detectors, you can simply note that on the certificate. However, there wouldn't be a code that you could attribute to it. Yeah. I think the issue there, Jake, as well, is, is, is whilst you could, whilst you would assess the wiring, you can't assess the system. That's the critical thing there. And so, and so don't make the leap from one to the other. Yeah. Remember the parallel elements that they both cover their own specific area. And, and in fact, if you're NIC or NAPA, I suspect it would, you would just look at it being out of scope. Correct. What would the, what would be the minimum system for a social housing landlord? I think we covered that in the table one. That would probably dictate that. And you'd be looking at an LD2 D1 system. Yeah. Yeah. Kitchen diner, would you install a heat alarm and a smoke alarm? Depends on the size of it, I would guess. I mean, we pretty much picked that up in the open plan area. Yeah. Yeah. Size. Yeah. With the loft in mind, minus 10 plus 50 degrees Celsius, what are your operating temperatures for the heat detectors? It's a very good question again. Sergio's been on a roll today. It's been pretty good. Yes. Sergio, if you could send an email into us, we can give you the text sheets to go alongside it. So you've got the full bit of information now. I don't know off the top of my head. I think what you've got to, I think what you've got to be aware of is if you are aware that the temperature could exceed, then you've got to, you've got to pick your manufacturer carefully. That comes down to you as a designer. It's not a standard thing. It's just recognising the operating temperature within which, I mean, in the UK, the minus 10 is not going to be an issue. The plus 50. I don't know. You ask some of them, some of the guys up in Scotland, you know, they tell me it's pretty cold up there. Where do I sit if I have a flat within a block that has a grade A sounder detector inside the flat with a detector, but nothing else? Can I still install a D1 LD2 or do I have to extend the grade A system throughout the flat? Yeah. Yeah. You can't mix systems. You've got a grade A system. The design of that system has to continue as a grade A system, unless you do a complete rewire and then you say, actually, I've looked at this. It doesn't fall within what table one within the standard recommends. Then I can go and pick a different graded category of system. But you've got to weigh that up very carefully. Don't mix systems. Can I just go back to one? Sorry, Jake. One of the other questions was asked about the periodicity. How often, how frequently you would do tests? Easy for you to say. And it failed miserably. Table three of the standard gives you some clarity as to the recommended testing regimes, just as a point of reference there. Perfect. Am I right in saying HMOs are now recommended to be grade A throughout with visual indicators for the same response as the previous question? Well, let me jump to, let me jump then to table one. I'll let you do that whilst I answer the next one. Yeah. How about covered car parks? Will these also require smoke and what category does this form under? That's an interesting one because if you're starting to go into car parks that have got communal or they're being used as a communal gathering for cars, I know that sounds really odd because that's what car parks for, but what I mean is it's not purely your own in your private dwelling. It's being used by multiple. You would suggest that actually that would sit more so under part one and that would be outside of the scope of part six perhaps. But again, these people that are designing these systems need to have the fire risk assessor or the fire strategy to truly understand. I'm going to get that caveat in there now before I tell people to do one thing and they should have done the other. Coming back to Dale and his question around HMOs. Table one's clear. There is no requirement specifically to have a grade A system. They pretty much follow in terms of the floor areas the same. What they do say though is you've got a communal area, then it's a grade A system within the communal area and that arrangement sits there. But no, as far as the minimum recommendation, you can always go above. So that's not limiting that. But from table one, that's page 24 of the standard. Houses in multiple occupation that covers the floor areas up to 200 metres squared, above 200 metres, so on and so forth. And they're all D1s. However, they're D1 category LD1. Yeah. So that gives you a bit more. I think Dale was talking about a specific project that he's looking at. Okay. So Dale, if you want to send out an email into the technical helpline at ESP, UK, what you should do is reference mine or Tim's name and we can have a conversation outside of it as well. They'll forward it on to us and we'll get in touch with you to see whether we can help out at all. Oh, yeah. So that email, I'll answer that one, Dale. Yeah. There we go. We've gone on a bit long, Jake. We have indeed, yeah. Well, I'm trying to get back to the bottom of the text, but it keeps popping back up for some strange reason. Is there any more questions, Curtis? If you thumbs up, thumbs down for us just to... Nothing. We don't know. No more on our side, guys. I believe that is all of the questions. Thank you so much. Okay. And if anybody's got any more questions or they want some specific answers to some of their questions, please feel free to email into the technical helpline or catch us on LinkedIn. Grab onto the socials for ESP UK or Skullmore Group, whichever one you want to find us on. We cover across all of them. So, yeah, please feel free to do it there. You can see that Curtis has tagged the Aspire website if you want to get on there and get some more contact details. As I say, if you go on there as well, you've got the contractor's guidebook and some of the literature around some of the products. I know we've not been able to go into that tonight, but please feel free to have a look at some of the products. Great features inside them. And yeah, and they're all done via us at ESP and the Skullmore Group.